What Does SimBrothel Need?

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What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by alasdair69 on Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:46 am

There’s a great group of people who are attempting to forge this game into the best it could be and while I declined to be an active part of that I still want to support them in whatever small way I can. To that end, I thought it would be beneficial to open up a discussion about just what it is that SimBrothel needs. And I’m not talking about simple, cosmetic things like adding a few girls or what to show at the end of the day (although those suggestions are helpful in their own right), I mean deep down, more than anything, what is this game lacking and how do we get it?

After much consideration, I think I’ve come up with three basic, yet far-reaching, areas where SimBrothel needs some serious improvement. Bear in mind that these are just my opinions and, as always, your mileage may vary. Conversation and debate on these, or any other, suggestions as well as making suggestions of your own is not only welcomed, it’s actively encouraged.

* Some added depth/scope to flesh out the world it’s set in and inform the game mechanics in order to make a more fully immersive playing experience.

* An eye towards the cohesiveness of the whole, because nothing exists in a vacuum and anything added or removed will to one degree or another affect everything else in the game.

* An overarching backstory that is both intelligent and coherent enough to explain why things in the game progress as they do and yet not so intrusive as to limit player options or distract from gameplay.

Let me give an example to further explain what I mean and underscore the kind of thing I’m looking for here. Someone suggested dividing the city the game takes place in into successive areas, with the players beginning in the slums and working their way through the lower class, middle class, upper class and then palace districts, with girls of differing capabilities and quality being available in each. This would certainly add more depth and scope to the game but in order to make it work one of two things has to happen. Either someone has to go through all the girls and decide which will be available in each area, adjusting their stats accordingly or the selection has to be randomized with the computer populating each area and assigning stat ranges at the beginning of each game. Doing either, however, will almost certainly result in someone complaining that so-and-so should have better stats than they are presented with or should be in the upper class district, not the slums. To counter this, the backstory has to, in a plausible way that doesn’t throw suspension of disbelief out the window, explain why these girls may look and be named the same as their counterparts but are still fundamentally different in other ways. After all, how many of these girls would actually be working in a brothel in the first place? I think we’re all proof positive that the players/fans notice these things and ask tough questions about anything that seems too terribly out of place.

Well, that about does it for my initial thoughts on the matter. I hope this helps stir up discussion and debate and that together we can make SimBrothel the great game it has the potential to become.

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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by ShiningRadiance on Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:20 am

Just because it's more difficult to make an argument as to why they are prostitutes in this world doesn't mean it's impossible.

If you take Yoruichi, it wouldn't be a stretch for her to work in a brothel in her spare time... nor would it be a stretch to say that Urahara's shop could be a brothel.

Some innocent girls, sure, but not all of them.

That's why I think some girls should come from another world and some shouldn't.

But if you really want to make the game the best it can be, have a ticker that says, "Rape on" or "Rape off."

Rape on will put in the stories as if the characters are kidnapped and such. Rape off will put in the stories as if they were born in that world.

It satisfies everyone. The only reason not to do this really is just laziness. There are evils in this world, and you turn a blind eye to them every day by not constantly confronting them. Knowing that they're in an H-game really shouldn't be that big a deal.
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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by alasdair69 on Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:08 am

All I said was that the backstory should be plausible and not throw suspension of disbelief out the window; whatever form it takes that fulfills those two criteria is up to you guys and fine with me. Rape is a horrible thing, and yet I've read several really good stories that involve it. Was it uncomfortable? Absolutely. Were they any less well-written or make any less sense because of it? Not at all. As long as it's necessary to the story and not a gratuitous attempt to satisfy some unhealthy fetish on the part of the writer, all I would ask is that any stories that contain it be flagged as such so that anyone (like me) who wishes to avoid them can.

As for the whole 'what world do they come from' subject, I have two (admittedly fairly minor and completely correctable) concerns. First, for reasons of personal aesthetic and believability, I think that they either should all come from other worlds or all come from the SimBrothel world itself. Mish-mashing it as you suggest just makes it seem haphazard to me, kind of like the writers didn't know how to explain the rest of them and just said "They've always been there". Whether that's the case or not, I'm afraid that's what it's going to look like. Also, if they do all come from other worlds, I'm concerned that the overall storyline might get too complex for the target audience to spend time following and require the players to suspend disbelief just a tad too much. I mean, SlaveMaker had one or two women show up from elsewhere at the whim of the gods but over a hundred all at once? There better be a pretty good story to support that kind of Deus ex Machina, you know?

On a related note, what actual affect will their origin and/or personality have on the game anyway? So far, I haven't seen or heard anything that would make it relevant and it seems like a lot of hassle to go through for something that's essentially going to be relegated to a fanfic page.

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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by ShiningRadiance on Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:10 am

It honestly doesn't matter either way. However, it would be better for some characters to have been born there with a similar backstory. But for others, it's better for them to have come from another world.

I'm thinking Tsunade could come from that world, but then Bleach girls might be better off coming from their own world because the Bleach girls have a real way of getting there. Naruto girls don't, except kidnapping, and it would be a stretch.
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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by Blastburn on Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:46 am

True enough characters that do traverse worlds would make sense to allow them to maintain said ability while those who dont are either brought there or born there.
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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by Midnight_Amratha on Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:07 am

one possible solution to making the idea that girls have different incomes in different areas would be to re-introduce the concept of "Training" with the added proviso that some areas will limit the amount of stat improvement possible. (still have ideas of personal training of several girls/women with the idea of Arabian nights and the time it will take out of their "productive time")
you may start out with as simple a concept as (number of areas = number of percentages max for skills (looks, sex, orientation/preferences, wages/income and so on))
areas called slum, lower class, upper lower class, lower middle class, middle class, upper middle class, lower upper class, upper class, lower aristocracy, middle aristocracy, upper aristocracy, ruling class. in other words 12 areas giving the range of percentages from 1-8 9-16 17-24 25-33 34-41 42-50 51-59 60-68 69-77 78-85 86-94 95-100
that would give a fixed amount of calculating the max income for the girls taking into account that making a profit is paramount in progressing in the game and making the play challenging, toss in a deteriorating factor on girls for wearing out during "use" and you make sure there won't be a fixed progression in the money making business. make sure the houses alo have the deteriorating aspect and you suddenly get to remember that running a brothel is not just getting the girl and then you're set for life.

is there as script for what parameters this game should contain? i mean is there a checklist for the different patterns we want inside the game?

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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by alasdair69 on Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:31 am

Midnight_Amratha wrote:one possible solution ... etc, etc, etc.

Okay, somehow I get the impression that the only thing keeping this from being an incredibly brilliant idea is that I don't understand a word of it. Could you please dumb that down for the cheap seats? LOL

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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by Raed on Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:25 am

On a totally unrelated note, for the storyline, you could really push the importance of the goddesses. Something like the girls died in their respective worlds and were reincarnated by the goddesses for whatever reason. I don't know, I thought of it before i was going to bed and thought I'd put it here before I got. I'll probably elaborate more tomorrow.

I know you said no death.. I just thought this was a little different. Maybe not.. I should sleep now..
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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by ShiningRadiance on Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:50 am

So Skuld is Gantz?
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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by Midnight_Amratha on Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:44 pm

my apoligies aladair69, when i get "hit" by an idea i usually tend to ramble on from the point where i start typing and neglect to bring the reasons behind the idea with me, a failing that others have pointed out to me on several occasions

My point in this post should be that once you reach a certain level in the game its pretty much a matter of clicking next day in order to get to the end of the game. There is no challenge to the game after you pass that hurdle. my idea is to make the game "deteriorate" if you like it so that their income will diminish over time and they will need to be re-clothed, re-trained and refreshed in order to maintain their level of income. Also the idea of having a high income girl placed in the most disgusting hovel and it doesn't have an impact on her income is to my way of seeing things pretty ludicruous (pardon my bad spelling).
set the possible income to be a percentage of her max possible ever ( that is to say her max possible ever = fullly trained and geared) assuming not every girl will be able to earn the same amount based upon their looks, team affiliation bonuses and so on. It goes without saying that our three main girls will be the ones that can possible make the most money of all the girls in the game.

now the house our girl is placed in will have a percentage of that max depending on what type it is.

i hope this will clear up a little of the clutter i made with that post

The "wear and tear" effect on the girls should of course be a direct number accumulated by the times they have "serviced" clients and the amount can only be reduced by re-training/"re-virginifying" of the girl. how that is to be done is up to suggestions from the forum, my personal preference is the train/gearing up of girls possibly recuperating.

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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by alasdair69 on Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:43 am

Raed wrote:I know you said no death.. I just thought this was a little different. Maybe not.. I should sleep now..

My 'no death' philosophy is pretty much the same as my 'no rape' philosophy, i.e. neither has any part in the actual gameplay (and yes, death of one or more girls ~was~ suggested by someone as a possible event). As far as storylines and explanations go, my only real 'requirements' are intelligence and believability. This is actually one of the more innovative ideas I've heard so far and I wouldn't mind hearing a more fleshed out, fully realized version of it.

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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by alasdair69 on Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:01 am

Midnight_Amratha wrote:My point in this post ...yada, yada, yada.

*blink, blink* 'Re-virginifying'? Five'll get you ten that the drug you have to take for that only comes in cherry flavor. *snork*

Sorry, just had to. Anyway, a lot of ideas have been bandied about as to how to make the game more challenging in the later stages but this is probably one of the more fully thought out ones. Some aspects of it I like a lot, others not so much. What does everyone else think?

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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by ShiningRadiance on Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:31 am

Seems a bit too direct, but I don't care either way. I'm fairly neutral to this one.
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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by Raed on Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:14 am

I'm against the retraining idea. I know this game reaches max income rate too quickly, but that shouldn't be combated with something that takes away from you, instead, add a feature with more depth, fix the numbers, make something to spend on, (i.e. - improved building levels with higher upkeep costs.) Or something like that. I don't like the idea of something directly detracting from you.
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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by Midnight_Amratha on Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:49 am

i can relate to that raed, just tossing an idea in, glad to see you got another idea that may work just as fine. only one small point. your idea builds on voluntary participation and i don't see many going for those ideas unless there's an ultimate bonus hanging by the end of those improvements and i'm not talking money only here. suppose that if you make those improvements you can get a foreign exchange .... i hesitate to say student here, but i hope you get the idea. Someone you would NOT get access to if you don't make the improvements and for gods sake make the improvement "Announce" that there will be a goodie by the end of that road.
i still will defend my own idea of the deteriorating value of things, its logical, natural and won't be that hard to enter into things.

but the other more important thing you seem to be missing from the first post is the idea of having limits to how much girls can make in a given environment (read hovel)

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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by alasdair69 on Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:46 am

I want to apologize to Midnight_Amratha for my rather truncated post. One thing you need to understand about me is that to call my computer a piece of junk is an insult to trash everywhere, and I'd just gotten started typing out one of my patented long-winded diatribes when I recognized the tell-tale signs of an imminent brainfart. So I cut it short, thinking I could just reboot real quick and then come back and finish but, well, it didn't quite work out that way.

Anyway, I have to say that I agree with you 100% about the things you cite that need fixing (especially the bit about putting a high-class girl into a low-class dive) but I'm less enthusiastic about the way you propose fixing them; I'm with Raed about not assigning penalties as such. Not too keen on Raed's suggestions for fixing them either, to be honest, precisely for the reason you said, that it requires the players to choose to do so. Also, I think that just sticking something in at the end to handicap people once they've gotten that far is kind of a douche-y thing to do.

My personal preference would be to approach the issue proactively with a multi-tiered strategy. First, add additional expenses that would be present from the beginning but get progressively more steep on a sliding scale as you progress through the game. Second, make it take longer for the girls to get to their max price and therefor the player to their max income, maybe add a couple of ranks or make it take longer to rank up between them. And third, establish a maximum amount that customers are willing/able to spend in each area of the city and some form of backlash from higher ranked girls if you try to stick them in crap buildings so people can't just get a few high ranked girls and then spread them out to each building and rake in the bucks.

Now, having the benefit of being intimately familiar with the mammoth tome of suggestions that have been made so far and being just OCD enough to try to figure out how to implement as many of them as possible at the same time, I can say one thing for sure. There are a ton of good ideas there for frittering away the players hard earned money, some they'd have to choose and some they'd be stuck with, and several equally good ideas for them to make even more. The problem might just end up not being about creating a money sink as it is how to balance all the new cashflow and all the new drain without either one being too overwhelming.

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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by Raed on Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:00 am

We can work on it as we go, one of my suggestions was numbers after all. Like making higher buildings daily cost more expensive, and girls prices for working in the lower houses lower to make a slower start up, and balance out the difference between high-end buildings and low-end buildings. Just throwing stuff out there.


Last edited by Raed on Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by alasdair69 on Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:13 am

Raed wrote:We can work on it as we go.

Agreed. Now's one of those times when I really wish the game model I've been working on was done already. It's got, I think, 12 ranks and 29 buildings, along with a plethora of ways for players to earn more money and for the game to take it away.

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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by Midnight_Amratha on Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:00 pm

i like the way you're thinking guys, the increasing prices sounds good so that you won't start out with a million dollar girl in a hovel Smile just my way of exagerating things. how did the idea of setting percentages of the girls maximum price sound? any use?

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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by alasdair69 on Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:16 pm

Well, it sounds like it would probably work okay but it wouldn't be real organic. Saying that people in the Slums could only afford to pay 'X' amount per visit, people in Lower Class 'Y' amount, etc, coupled with your girls getting persnickety if you try to work them in a building they think is beneath their status seems like it would accomplish the same thing without resorting to arbitrary and artificial percentage limits. In other words, a million dollar girl, as you put it, ~could~ very well make her full amount in that hovel IF the people in the neighborhood could afford to pay it and she was willing to work there in the first place, but since neither would be true it would all come out in the wash. Does that make sense?

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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by Midnight_Amratha on Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:29 am

sounds like we're saying the same thing you with the explanation me with the mechanics behind of course there will be a few addons that you need to fix to make them differentiate but thats in the nitty gritty dept.

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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by talthorn on Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:37 pm

Hello, everyone!

After having browsed the forum, I'm probably in the minority here, but I think this version of Sim Brothel needs is more decisions. Granted that pictures of anime girls having sex is an important aspect of the game, what's kept me playing the original version for months wasn't the pics, it was the gameplay: managing a prostitution empire. And what the original game did very well was have enough decisions to make to keep the game interesting, and also increase the replay value.

Nowhere is this more obvious than in the stats of the girls. Your game has six. The original has ten. In my opinion, simplifying the number of stats actually decreases the enjoyment of the gameplay, primarily because some of the stats actually affected multiple aspects of the girls' job performance. For example, one of the key aspects of a girl is how many customers a girl can see in a day. In your game, this is the Constitution stat. In the original, this was affected by three stats: constitution, joy, and libido. Of the three, constitution was the only stat that didn't decrease as a function of their job, and the school that increased that stat, dance, could add two very valuable traits: Splendid Body and Rest. It didn't, however, affect any other aspect of their job. Joy was one of the hardest stats in the game to raise: your only options were a relatively expensive ceremony, and the rare happiness trait, while the other stats had jokers, items, and XP as well schools. On the other hand, it was the key to ensuring that the girls actually wanted to work. Finally, there is libido, which affects the maximum price you can ask for a girl's services.

Another type of decision necessary for the game are what girls are you going to hire first. And I'm not talking about which pictures you'd like to see. In my opinion, there were three key categories that determined how desirable a girl was: refinement, big breasted, how quickly the girl can get to work. A girl's character and the number of customers they can work, determined how quickly the girl would get out of classes and working in the brothels. Refinement is important because it determines how quickly a girl can rank up, which determines how much you can ask for her. And the big breasted trait is important because it was free advertising, which is necessary for the larger buildings, and could not be gained through school work, only innate talent and enough APs (and thus actual work experience) to take advantage of it. Only four girls are in more than one top ten list, and none are in all three.

The other thing necessary for the game, which others have mentioned, is more gold sinks. In the old version, and from what I've seen in this one, after a certain point, it became rediculously easy to get more gold than what you know to do with it. Once you bought a building, there was no maintenance required to keep it up. Neither did all those improvements you used to attract customers. Buildings require staff to serve the girls, maintain the building, protect the girls from unruly customers, and provide non-sexual services for the customers. The yakuza will want their cut (or you'll need more guards to scare them away) and the police may need to be bribed (or you can avoid providing illegal services like drugs and gambling.) Moral crusaders may object to you moving into their neighborhood, so you'll have to bribe politicians to look the other way (or you can use certain forms of advertising that keep them off their radar, but aren't as effective at attracting actual customers). Nor should you be the only game in town! Do you compete against other brothels fairly for your share of the customer base (you may only have a brothel in the slums, but it's a damn fine one... better than most in the merchant district, and the girls are cheaper here, enough to attract higher-class customers into the slums) or do you undermine the others (spread rumors or hire thugs or yakuza) until you're the only game in town?

Finally, one thing that both versions of the game really, really need is the ability to make a schedule for the girls. In the original version, the girls required a day off once in a while to rest, which I think you should include in this version as well, plus they frequently required some amount of training. In your version, because house and leader traits affect stats, plus the necessity of having a house leader order you to rank up, makes it pretty much guaranteed that you'll be shuffling the girls around. Being able to essentially say, "New girl, here's your schedule. You're a lousy lay right now, so you'll be working with the nymphomanics four days a week. Report to the old shack for obediance training on day five, take a break on day six, and report to the palace on day seven to give one of the other girls a break, and see if you can rank up." In addition, with the ability to schedule, it opens other possibilites. For example, different days of the week could have different effects. The most obvious one would be the holy of the week. It's a holy day, so the customer pool is smaller, but the customers looking for a girl will tip heavily. Girls working that day would anger the moral crusaders, but girls with the day off would be less willing to work. Another day of the week could be a rest day, where most of the city has the day off. The customer pool is a lot larger, but girls with the day off can take advantage of the festivities and have fun, and thus be more willing to work.

That's a few of my ideas to make the game richer and, in my opinion at least, a lot more fun. If you just want to see anime girls having sex, there's plenty of it all over the internet. The main attraction of games like these, at least for me, is to have fun while earning my porn. The original game did a great job of that, by being a game of surprising depth. If your version could build upon that depth, and avoid the original's primary flaw (which I'll discuss on the other thread), you'll have a great game.

And thank you for the time and energy you're spending on this game.


P.S. I'm not familiar with Flash programming, if that is indeed what you're using, and it is probably far too late into the development cycle to mention this anyways, but I hope you're using object-oriented programming if it's available. It does require more work initially, but once you've got the base completed, it's a lot easier to add new features and functions. For example, at first you could have a generic district, which contains generic buildings, which are made up of generic rooms, which houses generic people, as well as a generic player which keeps track of everything the player owns (buildings and people). As you add features, you can make specialized people (ex: prostitutes, servants, guards); specialized rooms (ex: fancy bedroom, servant quarters, bar, foyer) and buildings (a palace isn't simply a high reputation building with a lot of rooms, but a building made up of fancy bedrooms, foyer, servant quarters, kitchen, ball room, etc...); specialized districts (slums, middle class, upper class, foreigner, merchant, etc...) that have their own characteristics; and more "players" (rivals, yakuza, police, moral guardians).

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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by Hyperecchi on Sun Nov 08, 2009 8:17 pm

Since the 3 starting characters are goddesses, I always thought that when You go to the slave market, they kinda look across the dimentions and are able to go into the respective worlds to pick up their employees. Like Tsunadi's debts get paid for by your character (hence why it costs 1200) and so Tsunadi has to work for you until she can pay you back.. (altho, how she gets back to her world is beyond her)

That's how I'd like to see it, All the girls are from their respective games and timelines, but one way or another they get rescued by the owner, and agree to work for them, The ones with low obediance, of cource are talked into it and dont want to be there, but they eventualy learn to accept their fate and come over to the dark side.
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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by Joshua2000 on Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:59 pm

well they are still deciding what girls/series should be able to travers dimesions, and which need to maybe dragged into this one, (so they could be found and the strrets and the like)

as for the programing, they are using C#, a pc only object oriented style.


Last edited by Joshua2000 on Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:09 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling.)
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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

Post by Esken on Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:52 am

Felt compelled to give a small suggestion here.

Given that more prestigeus whores recive more money. but perhaps more importantly, wealthier customers are willing to to pay more in an luxurious environment - and wont even visit the slums. My thoughts for easiest solution would be to put a income multiplyer on the buildings and reduce the income increase from lvl'ing.

lvl 1 in a shack give you 20*1. put her in a palace and its 20*5
lvl 8 in a shack give you 100*1. and in the palace its 100*5

Or whatever values thats apropriate.

Add means to slightly increase the income values of the buildings and you have another small but good basis for steady game progress.

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Re: What Does SimBrothel Need?

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