Does the game really need a moral debate?

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Does the game really need a moral debate?

Post by Twisted Fox on Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:27 am

Its a hentai game. There are far more twisted ones out there. Yet we are asking the morality about stuff such as rape and the age of fictional characters. I know rape and underage stuff is wrong in real life. I respect it. This is fiction that nobody should be taking seriously. If they play a game and think that it is okay in real life, then they shouldn't be playing any game in general.

Also I think the differences between tolerance of players should warrant the ability to disable characters based on preference.

Disclaimer: I do not approve of rape and underage intercourse. Rape is a horrific crime against humanity. Pedophiles are sickos. However this is a game.

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Re: Does the game really need a moral debate?

Post by alasdair69 on Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:15 am

Since I'm the one who started said moral debate, I suppose I should say something here. To be honest, I never thought it would turn out to be as big a deal as it has, I figured I'd say something like "rape and kiddy porn are bad, mmmkay?" and all of my right-thinking fellow forumites would say "yes they are" and we'd all move forward with peace, love and understanding, cue the Age of Aquarius music. Not a bad delusion for someone who doesn't even do drugs, huh? *snork*

I do understand what you're saying though, and to a certain limited extent I can even agree with it, but something I think most people tend to overlook is that there's a big difference between playing a game and ~making~ one. You might play a game that has certain objectionable things in it, like SlaveMaker for instance, if there's enough non-objectionable stuff in it to make it worth enduring the parts you aren't comfortable with. When you make a game, on the other hand, your choice of what to include in it sends a message. Don't think about it so much in terms of what you're letting the players turn off as what you're letting them turn ~on~.

No one, least of all me, would argue that rape doesn't exist in real life or that prostitutes might not be prone to becoming it's victims. My point on that score, and I think most people agree with me, was simply that it has no business being in the actual gameplay of SimBrothel because it's impossible to deal with the act and it's consequences with the gravitas the topic deserves within such a framework and doing anything less would be insulting to the millions of women worldwide who have been it's victims. Or the 1872 women who will become it's victims tomorrow.

As for the kiddy porn (and that's what it is, despite the specious 'fictional characters' argument, as I've already explained in detail elsewhere), if you put it into the game in any way you're sending a message of advocacy. You're saying "hey, I know some of you guys get off on little girls so I stuck some in just for you". This, to me, is wrong. As it stands right now, 5 out of the current 115 girls in the game are definitively children (I did some research yesterday and found out that Hikari and Misty are 10 as well, although there ~might~ be some wiggle room for Misty). That's almost 5% of the total population of the game, which to me isn't even advocacy any more, it's encouragement. An idea has been struck upon which might let us keep those characters in the game in a non-sexual way and tons (seriously, tons, like over 300) of other girls have been suggested or submitted who could easily take their places. At this point, I honestly don't see how anyone other than hardcore pedophiles could possibly still argue against the removal of the sex pics for those 5 and to be quite frank about it I really don't much care what hardcore pedophiles want in the first place.

To be fair though, both of those subjects had pretty much quietened down considerably in the last few days anyway. Until somebody came along and brought it back up, that is.

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Re: Does the game really need a moral debate?

Post by Twisted Fox on Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:11 am

Lol

I just love it when people are so passionate about what they believe. I take no joy in angering them, but I take joy in seeing different point of views. You're right. I stirred the hornets' nest. Shame on me. I was just gone for the longest time. I promise this is my last word.

Its just me that tries to take the gaming life less seriously when the real world has enough problems and issues. I advocate for more freedom for individuals as long as it doesn't affect others. Its not just about it being fictional, but that I don't think it really affects anyone else except the ones that use the functions. That is why I argue for choice of turning on functions and pics or not. You are right. The concept is depending on what the makers allow the user to do. I am afraid that it will burst into full out censorship. I say we should all shut up and let the makers make the game how they choose. I don't like it when writers bend to the whim of readers and change the ending.

Disclaimer: I do not want to downplay or insult the billions of victims. I feel for them like all warm-blooded human beings. I despise the immoral individuals who commit these crimes.

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Re: Does the game really need a moral debate?

Post by alasdair69 on Sun Nov 08, 2009 4:34 am

Twisted Fox wrote:Lol

I just love it when people are so passionate about what they believe. I take no joy in angering them, but I take joy in seeing different point of views. You're right. I stirred the hornets' nest. Shame on me. I was just gone for the longest time. I promise this is my last word.

It better not be, you seem to have a good head on your shoulders and you're willing and able to engage in constructive debate. At this stage in it's development ~that's~ what SimBrothel ~really~ needs.

Twisted Fox wrote:Its just me that tries to take the gaming life less seriously when the real world has enough problems and issues. I advocate for more freedom for individuals as long as it doesn't affect others. Its not just about it being fictional, but that I don't think it really affects anyone else except the ones that use the functions.

I couldn't agree with you more about taking games less seriously. After all, they're what I use to escape from the problems and issues of the real world for a time, hence 'escapist entertainment'. Not so sure about it not really affecting anyone else, though. There's scads of evidence that indulging in darker impulses in a harmless setting like this helps to defuse them but also scads of evidence that it contributes to their progression and in the end everyone believes one or the other but no one really ~knows~, you know? And speaking as both a human being and a father if there's even the ~chance~ that something as seemingly innocuous as SimBrothel having 10-year-olds in it might help convince some sick bastard out there that he might as well go ahead and put the moves on that sultry little preschooler he's had his eye on I want no part of it.


Twisted Fox wrote:That is why I argue for choice of turning on functions and pics or not. You are right. The concept is depending on what the makers allow the user to do. I am afraid that it will burst into full out censorship.

I don't advocate censorship in any way, shape or form. I do however advocate erring on the side of caution and common sense when it involves the safety of children and not catering to sleazy molesters. As I pondered elsewhere, would the people who support the inclusion in the game of children in explicit sex acts for whatever reason still think those reasons are valid if we were talking about their sister or daughter instead of cartoon characters? If not, then it's not a valid argument.

Twisted Fox wrote:I say we should all shut up and let the makers make the game how they choose. I don't like it when writers bend to the whim of readers and change the ending.

That's just it, brother/sister/small fuzzy animal/whatever. We ~ARE~ the makers of the game, WE are the dreamers of the dream. (Sorry, Willy Wonka flashback.) That's the whole purpose of this forum, so the Dev Team (gods help us *snork*) can see what people think and suggest.

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Re: Does the game really need a moral debate?

Post by Raed on Sun Nov 08, 2009 7:52 am

alasdair69 wrote:
I couldn't agree with you more about taking games less seriously. After
all, they're what I use to escape from the problems and issues of the
real world for a time, hence 'escapist entertainment'. Not so sure
about it not really affecting anyone else, though. There's scads of
evidence that indulging in darker impulses in a harmless setting like
this helps to defuse them but also scads of evidence that it
contributes to their progression and in the end everyone believes one
or the other but no one really ~knows~, you know? And speaking as both
a human being and a father if there's even the ~chance~ that something
as seemingly innocuous as SimBrothel having 10-year-olds in it might
help convince some sick bastard out there that he might as well go
ahead and put the moves on that sultry little preschooler he's had his
eye on I want no part of it....

...I don't advocate censorship in any way, shape or form. I do however
advocate erring on the side of caution and common sense when it
involves the safety of children and not catering to sleazy molesters.
As I pondered elsewhere, would the people who support the inclusion in
the game of children in explicit sex acts for whatever reason still
think those reasons are valid if we were talking about their sister or
daughter instead of cartoon characters? If not, then it's not a valid
argument.

The same argument can and has been made in reverse. Maybe there's someone who is interested in underage, and maybe loli is their vent. There's no way to really know, it's not like you can take a survey or something asking about loli.

alasdair69 wrote:
I do understand what you're saying though, and to a certain limited
extent I can even agree with it, but something I think most people tend
to overlook is that there's a big difference between playing a game and
~making~ one. You might play a game that has certain objectionable
things in it, like SlaveMaker for instance, if there's enough
non-objectionable stuff in it to make it worth enduring the parts you
aren't comfortable with. When you make a game, on the other hand, your
choice of what to include in it sends a message. Don't think about it
so much in terms of what you're letting the players turn off as what
you're letting them turn ~on~.

A not from the side of a dev team, you're more likely to get people to voice their objections on things like loli then support it, for obvious reasons. It's not like you can make a pro loli argument.

alasdair69 wrote:I couldn't agree with you more about taking games less seriously. After
all, they're what I use to escape from the problems and issues of the
real world for a time, hence 'escapist entertainment'. Not so sure
about it not really affecting anyone else, though. There's scads of
evidence that indulging in darker impulses in a harmless setting like
this helps to defuse them but also scads of evidence that it
contributes to their progression and in the end everyone believes one
or the other but no one really ~knows~, you know? And speaking as both
a human being and a father if there's even the ~chance~ that something
as seemingly innocuous as SimBrothel having 10-year-olds in it might
help convince some sick bastard out there that he might as well go
ahead and put the moves on that sultry little preschooler he's had his
eye on I want no part of it.

You're mistaking this game for a console game or something. Don't forget, while this game is big on it's managerial aspects, it's an H-game. i wouldn't attach the term escapist entertainment to it. I certainly don't look for H-Games while trying to relax or escape reality.
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Re: Does the game really need a moral debate?

Post by Joshua2000 on Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:21 pm

well every one has different opinons, and no two are exacly alike, so like loli, some can tolerate it, some just flat out hate it, and of course we have the underage users who think its fine, since there around that age.

on a side note, misty and dawn are 10? wth? hmm i checked the site it says at time of debute, so mist may be around 14 seince it been more or less 4 seasons but theres now way of knowing, i all ways thought they were like 14 for some reason.
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Re: Does the game really need a moral debate?

Post by zodiac44 on Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:47 am

Raed wrote:The same argument can and has been made in reverse. Maybe there's someone who is interested in underage, and maybe loli is their vent. There's no way to really know, it's not like you can take a survey or something asking about loli.

If loli hentai is their vent, they can get it elsewhere. It's not as if Sim Brothel would be the only source they can get it from. I don't have an opinion either way, but if including it makes people uncomfortable, then don't include it.

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Re: Does the game really need a moral debate?

Post by alasdair69 on Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:11 am

Joshua2000 wrote:on a side note, misty and dawn are 10? wth? hmm i checked the site it says at time of debute, so mist may be around 14 seince it been more or less 4 seasons but theres now way of knowing, i all ways thought they were like 14 for some reason.

You're absolutely correct, I failed to take into consideration that the Pokemon anime (which generally makes my teeth itch, to be honest, so I always found something else to do whenever my kids watched it) has been going on since about 1812. Slight exaggeration of course, but the point is that even with the time dilation common to television shows of longer than one season, both can be considered to be well above 13 and thus fair game. Thanks for catching that.

To be perfectly honest though, I'm really having a hard time finding it in me to care much anymore, about the age thing or anything else. This is all just so much harder than it should have to be. The forum transforms into armed camps over every single point of contention, people start citing highbrow societal research in support of their own agendas and even something as simple as 'kiddy porn is bad' drags into a week long debate. And in the end, nothing at all gets settled or gets done. Ever. I started posting here naively thinking that we could all work together to make SimBrothel v2 the best game possible and have tried to bring some fresh ideas into the mix and in return I've been yelled at, called names and accused of everything from stealing ideas from games I've never even heard of to trying to take over. Take over WHAT? This mess? No thanks.

I was wrong, what SimBrothel really needs is ~leadership~! Most of the so-called 'Dev Team' are missing in INaction and does anyone know what they're supposed to actually be DOING, anyway? Other thank poor, thankless Karel who's trudging away with the code and getting so little direction that he's implementing ideas suggested by random forumites and ShinRad who's rabid in defense of her own ideas of how the storyline should go, do any of them have clearly defined areas of responsibility in the first place? Is someone supposed to be responsible for collecting suggestions and figuring out what the majority of people want? Is someone supposed to be responsible for balancing included gameplay options to make it all work together? And more importantly is someone (preferably a team of someones) responsible for taking it all into consideration and making ultimate decisions on what will or will not be included? I've seen people make grand declarations about how such-and-such will or will not be in the game, period, end of discussion, and I've also seen other people point out that the first people don't have the final say, but who DOES? Answer: no one, and that's the problem.

To put it bluntly, this isn't a game development team it's a debate group and while we're all arguing amongst ourselves nothing is going to get done. It's a classic case of too many chiefs and not enough Indians. This sort of discussion is necessary and it's good that we all have our own opinions and are willing to stick to them so tightly, but without a single authority (and by that I mean a team who works ~together~) dedicated to the game itself and not anyone's personal agendas all we'll end up with is a game that tries to make everyone happy and ends up pleasing no one at all.

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Re: Does the game really need a moral debate?

Post by Raed on Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:47 am

If you're looking for "authority", you're looking for Shiny. Shiny was one of the one's who was on the team when Pooolka dropped it and is still active. Your statements are contradictory in saying that someone should be in charge (Shiny) and that things shouldn't be argued.

Shiny put these girls in personally, therefor, they were decided on by the "dev team". The "Dev team's" done something, and you're arguing against it. I don't particularly care about arguing, I told you in that chat. It grinds ideas to the finer details of which is better, but don't play both sides of the argument.

I do think Karel deserves more credit then he gets, and the reason we haven't done anything in the past week as that he's been busy with other things. Between him and our new coder, as soon as one of them needs information on coding something that needs information, they'll get it.
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Re: Does the game really need a moral debate?

Post by Joshua2000 on Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:08 am

of course every one wants things their ways, and its ahrd to please any one, and it seems were pleasing no one at the same time, and we do need some order, because oviously one man (or girl in shining case) can not make a game,

on a side note did i miss something yesterday? (as to why you tired of aruging.)

oh and my thing about the pokemon girls is not absolute, for example, one piece, been around for quite a while but the author says a year has not passed yet (in refrence to story line) so essentally in one piece the equation is 0<x<1 with x being the days that passed less then a year, and who says anime years are 356 days or so? so unless the maker say X year has passed my argument is essentally a devils proof.
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Re: Does the game really need a moral debate?

Post by Twisted Fox on Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:55 am

D@mn it! I hate breaking my vow of silence.

I raise my voice again because the Devs are being questioned for their leadership. As far as I am concerned, the Devs are good people who get no money and do this out of interest. They are doing the best they can. I thank them for their work. I understand frustrations, but I believe gratefulness comes first.

Thank you Devs

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Re: Does the game really need a moral debate?

Post by ShiningRadiance on Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:43 am

Let things be debated... the more we debate, the closer we get to the 'truth'.
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Re: Does the game really need a moral debate?

Post by alasdair69 on Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:16 pm

I had a post, really I did. And it wasn't a bad one either, if I do say so myself. It responded to several individual comments that my last post elicited and, I think anyway, framed everything more in the constructive criticism format that I'd originally intended and failed miserably to achieve because I was tired, stressed and in a bad mood when I wrote it. And then it was accidentally deleted by a Mod.

Oh well, it probably would have just made even more people unhappy with me anyway. I tend to have that affect on people because I don't play politics, I don't kiss *** and I don't say anything in private that I'm not willing to admit to in public. With me what you see is what you get and I suppose most people really don't know how to deal with that.

So lesson learned, you guys have fun and I'll just keep my controversial opinions to myself from now on.

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My own opinion on the matter

Post by Koji-Kun on Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:55 am

Personally, i hate anime girls with the world's biggest boobs that take up the entire freggin screen... which is why i turn to lolicon. Because even if i'm not a pedo, i appreciate hentai with a lack of chest. So when i saw Lolicon and normal hentai was in this game, i became a fan. I can have a fair share of both.

And honestly, to those apposed to it... its your choice in the game to buy underaged girls. You can always ignore them in the "Buy Girls" and buy your own Tsunade. Your choice. I choose to buy the young ones because i just plain hate big boobs (though it doesn't help May's picture has one of her with a huge chest... did she age like, ten years in that picture? XD)

And you know what? I really like this game for tending to both worlds. Its what makes me continue to make new games and keep playing. So keep it up. Great game. Smile

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Re: Does the game really need a moral debate?

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